We need to talk

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Re: We need to talk

Post by Truthseeker4449 on 29th March 2017, 6:01 am

@Caprizant wrote:Another case, though I haven't personally seen it thrown around in awhile, is terms like "trap" and "futa." As a trans person, I find these terms particularly degrading. "Trap" because it implies that not disclosing my gender assignment at birth is some major deception, when it's personal information that I don't reveal to people for my own personal safety. "Futa," meanwhile, fetishizes trans people. It's extremely degrading to know that some people think of me as an inhuman fetish, rather than a person.
Those words are so seldom used here, or even offsite, that I had thought this wasn't an issue anymore. Apparently I was wrong again. I sincerely hope that you don't think any of us, or anyone you know would think of you that way. But people are always gonna hate for the sake of wanting to hate something and it doesn't matter if you're trans or not. You can't let it drag you down.

Though I wouldn't consider "Futa" or the full word "Funtari" a inhuman fetish. A trans person is still human no? I'm not saying it's an okay thing, it's just that your wording bugs me.




I put way too much thought into this, this early in the morning


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Re: We need to talk

Post by Meyneth on 29th March 2017, 9:58 am

Ah man I noticed that you weren't posting much on here anymore. I wish that I had reached out to you sooner and let me know if there's anything I can do to help! 

I don't really have any ideas, sorry. <.<
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Re: We need to talk

Post by Caprizant on 29th March 2017, 11:22 am

@Truthseeker4449 wrote:Those words are so seldom used here, or even offsite, that I had thought this wasn't an issue anymore. Apparently I was wrong again. I sincerely hope that you don't think any of us, or anyone you know would think of you that way. But people are always gonna hate for the sake of wanting to hate something and it doesn't matter if you're trans or not. You can't let it drag you down.
Yeah, as I said, I haven't seen the terms thrown around in awhile. I knew they'd come up again eventually, though, so I just wanted to get this squared away sooner rather than later.
Though I wouldn't consider "Futa" or the full word "Funtari" a inhuman fetish. A trans person is still human no? I'm not saying it's an okay thing, it's just that your wording bugs me.
Generally speaking, many people who are into futa don't see us as fully human, in the sense that we have personalities and desires of our own. They just see us as novelties to use to fulfill their own desires.
@Meyneth wrote:Ah man I noticed that you weren't posting much on here anymore. I wish that I had reached out to you sooner and let me know if there's anything I can do to help! 

I don't really have any ideas, sorry. <.<
A lot of my not posting here recently has more to do with school than this, tbh. It's just that this is one big thing that has been bubbling under the surface for awhile and I wanted to address it directly. :U
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Re: We need to talk

Post by Orcapon on 29th March 2017, 1:58 pm

Alright, I've been thinking a lot about this and can conclude that I am 100% against this. First of all is the way you've gone about this. Is making what is essentially a 'callout post' necessary to make us already look in the bad while holding your power over our heads? Did you try voicing your concern as an equal in a regular thread first? Message the person privately to resolve this thus avoiding all these theatrics? When Bunny spoke up about how we were making her uncomfortable I was willing to bend over backwards for her because she showed this mattered to her by speaking up and earned so much of my respect. She didn't try to push for rule changes or anything, instead opting to find her own solutions but here, here I see something different.

Then there's the fact that you've pretty much painted yourself as a victim in your posts and paint us as bad guys with generalizations (viewing them only for their appearances and not personality? Heck in this thread you already went over how apparently we don't view fit as as people too. Not to mention that summarried your reply to me talking about anxiety summed up to "that's nice but I have it worse".

Another thing is that lewdness and see are part of being human but you want us to completely hide it from here as if we should be ashamed of it. Heck, that sounded dirty, which was one of our available outlets to be lewd was taken away so where did you expect that lewdness to go?

Maybe I'm overreacting but all of this is what I reached after hours of thought and following my sense of justice. Heck, I'm starting to doubt we are even friends if you would let yourself see us doing this as trying to offend you and then approach us with Administration hat on.

In the end, follow your sense of justice and I'll follow mine wherever it takes me, whether I stay or go.
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Re: We need to talk

Post by Truthseeker4449 on 29th March 2017, 3:29 pm

I'd hoped things wouldn't quite swing in this direction. *sighs*

I feel Nopon has a point, to an extent. Though a lot of it seems a little overactive Yes, there is a forum-wide problem that should be addressed but it sounds like a personal problem exists as well. Your anixeity is quite evident, but I'm concerned that it's leading you to generalize us and see us as people we are not.

Generally speaking, many people who are into futa don't see us as fully human, in the sense that we have personalities and desires of our own. They just see us as novelties to use to fulfill their own desires.

Is that really us? Unless I'm mistaken, we were the first to know about your decision to change your gender and we met it with open arms, did we not? Do you really think one of us would see you as a "novelty" and think of you as a way to fulfill our desires?

I knew they'd come up again eventually, though, so I just wanted to get this squared away sooner rather than later.
Perhaps this is a typo, but I'm reading this as accusatory. As if we learned nothing from what happened with "That Sounded Dirty" nearly 3 years ago. I think we've matured a great deal since then.




The whole thing makes me start to make me wonder and perhaps this seems unrelated. Caprizant, what do you see in my theme?


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Re: We need to talk

Post by Greece on 29th March 2017, 3:42 pm

I've been trying to think about what I want to say for a bit. (and I still might not convey it well.) I appreciate that Cap did say something and I appreciate that Nopon is also talking about his concerns and discomforts, as it would be hard to find the best solution is there was no opposition.

As I've been thinking on this I don't believe that placing bans is the right choice. We've all deiced and talked about before how this is supposed to be a lax place for everyone to discuss their interest and by placing the ban we are alienating some of our friends and discouraging them from being themselves.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, you guys are my friends and I love you. I've told you guys that's its OK that you like this type of stuff because it's your life and you can live it how ever you please. The only thing I've ever asked is that you don't send images to or get over explicit with me personally, and that has been respected as far as my memory is willing to work.

I feel that last night I might have been out of line, because I can only think of one or two times in the past few months that have made me uncomfortable, so I don't think it was really my place to say anything on this. (albeit I haven't been very active due to work schedules but hey, not really the point here).

If something I said bothered or offended you Nopon PM me and lets talk it out. Even if you leave the forums I don't want to lose you as a friend.

I don't know what the right solution is right now, and I know we haven't found it yet. I hope this doesn't fan the flames, but I didn't want to not say anything. I left this for an hour or two and it was all that I could think about and it's eating me up because I feel that I've hurt my friends by thinking about banning apart of them, I'm sorry.

No one here has made comments to me about my gender or has harassed me about anything at all. Gender, religion, anything. I think the ban would be for if they were objectifying female users, if they were harassing female users. But that's not what they've done, so they shouldn't be pointed out or feel ashamed. I'm deeply sorry because that's what I did to you guys and that wasn't right.

I want to apologize again, and I hope we'll be able to talk to each other and work through this. I don't know if I've offended anyone, and I want to say that wasn't my intention at all. I am in no way upset with anyone at all. (I also hope I didn't fan the flames, because that wasn't what I wanted to do, I just felt like I had to say something before it was too late. Maybe I shouldn't be saying anything, but I just feel like I need to). (I'm so afraid of hurting any of you all, so I may even post less and less in this because of that fear...)
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Re: We need to talk

Post by Caprizant on 29th March 2017, 4:15 pm

reply time!:
I want to preface this by saying that I don't intend to be hostile in posting this. I love all of you. I want to do the best I can to make this forum comfortable for everyone involved.
Arupon wrote:Alright, I've been thinking a lot about this and can conclude that I am 100% against this. First of all is the way you've gone about this. Is making what is essentially a 'callout post' necessary to make us already look in the bad while holding your power over our heads? Did you try voicing your concern as an equal in a regular thread first? Message the person privately to resolve this thus avoiding all these theatrics?
I made this thread so that we could communicate on this as equals before I barged ahead with implementing any new rules. And I'm glad you responded, because this will help work out all these issues before any action is taken.
When Bunny spoke up about how we were making her uncomfortable I was willing to bend over backwards for her because she showed this mattered to her by speaking up and earned so much of my respect. She didn't try to push for rule changes or anything, instead opting to find her own solutions  but here, here I  see something different.
This is barely anything different. Instead of expecting people to gather the courage to speak up themselves, we're reassuring them ahead of time that it's okay to speak up, removing a lot of the fuss. It's not a blanket ban on certain topics―it's just an extra channel for everyone to express their discomfort. From that expression of discomfort we can work out how to best handle the situation, publicly, on a case-by-case basis. I should have made that much clear, and for that, I apologize.
Then there's the fact that you've pretty much painted yourself as a victim in your posts and paint us as bad guys with generalizations  (viewing them only for their appearances and not personality? Heck in this thread you already went over how apparently we don't view fit as as people too.
I'm sorry if I implied that you're in the wrong in any way. You're not in the wrong for expressing your discomfort with this.

I was expressing my frustrations with institutional forms of misogyny and transphobia that I've been dealing with all my life. The terms I brought up have been used in more malicious circles to intentionally dehumanize women and trans people.

However, I know y'all aren't malicious. I understand that your use of the terms does not intentionally carry those connotations and that y'all don't see me or anyone else here as inhuman or anything like that. I don't consider you any less of a person for using those terms or participating in those conversations, and I especially don't see you as any less of a friend.

(I dedicate this section of my response to Truth as well, since he posted a reply on this subject while I was typing. :p)
the truth quote i'm referring to:
@Truthseeker4449 wrote:Is that really us? Unless I'm mistaken, we were the first to know about your decision to change your gender and we met it with open arms, did we not? Do you really think one of us would see you as a "novelty" and think of you as a way to fulfill our desires?
Not to mention that summarried your reply to me talking about anxiety summed up to "that's nice but I have it worse".
That's not the message I was intending to get across. It requires different methods to accommodate people with anxiety than it does to accommodate women and trans people. Women and trans people do not have it worse or better than people with anxiety. Their situations just need to be addressed separately.
Another thing is that lewdness and see are part of being human but you want us to completely hide it from here as if we should be ashamed of it. Heck, that sounded dirty, which was one of our available outlets to be lewd was taken away so where did you expect that lewdness to go?
If someone is uncomfortable with the level of sexualization around here, then I absolutely expect it to be toned down. I'm sure there is more to talk about than sex around here. It can be taken other places, but we need to set boundaries here. We need to let other people express their boundaries, whether publicly in conversation or privately through the report system.

Given the issues you've raised so far, I think this can be an opportunity to help you, too. Rather than specifically being a channel to express discomfort with sexualization, I think it can be a channel to express discomfort in general. It could go like this:
Rules wrote:If you are feeling uncomfortable with a current conversation or user theme, you can use the report system to express that discomfort. A mod or admin will intervene on your behalf.

In the case of conversation, this will involve interrupting the flow of conversation briefly to acknowledge the discomfort before moving on. In the case of user themes, this will involve a private message to the user asking them to change their theme due to discomfort from another member.

The report system can be used to express discomfort with any subject or theme, whether because of personal anxiety, trauma, or other forms of discomfort.
Note that the report system is not being used to punish the users being reported. It's just being used to alert us of someone else's discomfort if they can't express it themselves.
Maybe I'm overreacting but all of this is what I reached after hours of thought and following my sense of justice. Heck, I'm starting to doubt we are even friends if you would let yourself see us doing this as trying to offend you and then approach us with Administration hat on.

In the end, follow your sense of justice and I'll follow mine wherever it takes me, whether I stay or go.
I don't think you're overreacting. This is your place too. We're your friends and I want you to feel safe among us.
@Truthseeker4449 wrote:I feel Nopon has a point, to an extent. Though a lot of it seems a little overactive
Again, I don't think it's overreacting at all. This is a big change, and as someone else with anxiety, big changes are pretty frickin' terrifying. :V

I want to help ease the anxiety that will come with all this talk, so it's important not to dismiss any criticism. It may be coming from a place one might not understand, just because you've never experienced it from their perspective.
Perhaps this is a typo, but I'm reading this as accusatory. As if we learned nothing from what happened with "That Sounded Dirty" nearly 3 years ago. I think we've matured a great deal since then.
Nah, I know y'all are good on this. By the sheer range of topics we cover in a single week, I just think it's probable that the topic will be referenced in some manner. I just wanted to make it explicit on my part.
The whole thing makes me start to make me wonder and perhaps this seems unrelated. Caprizant, what do you see in my theme?
If someone else expresses their discomfort with it I'll ask you to change it. At the current time I don't have much of an opinion about it.
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Re: We need to talk

Post by Lie Katano on 29th March 2017, 4:45 pm

Forgive me for being blunt, or perhaps completely missing any points, but... What, exactly, is the problem that required this to be an announcement post, rather than, say, a post in Customer Service saying "if you're uncomfortable with something, don't feel afraid to ask the user responsibile to stop" or a PM to any offending users saying "hey, maybe you're going a bit overboard"?



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Re: We need to talk

Post by Orcapon on 29th March 2017, 7:28 pm

Lief Katano wrote:Forgive me for being blunt, or perhaps completely missing any points, but... What, exactly, is the problem that required this to be an announcement post, rather than, say, a post in Customer Service saying "if you're uncomfortable with something, don't feel afraid to ask the user responsibile to stop" or a PM to any offending users saying "hey, maybe you're going a bit overboard"?

SO
MUCH
THIS

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Re: We need to talk

Post by Truthseeker4449 on 29th March 2017, 9:16 pm

Caprizant, to help us understand where to put the line down, could you provide a recent example of a conversation that needs to toned down?


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Re: We need to talk

Post by jokool on 29th March 2017, 9:58 pm

...ugh, been biting my tongue all afternoon after seeing this, and all I'm going to say is that I agree with Lief and Nopon on this. If I say anything more, it'll probably get ugly.


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Re: We need to talk

Post by Windchild on 29th March 2017, 10:00 pm

Same. *also agrees with Lief and Nopon*


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Re: We need to talk

Post by Caprizant on 31st March 2017, 5:58 pm

Lief Katano wrote:Forgive me for being blunt, or perhaps completely missing any points, but... What, exactly, is the problem that required this to be an announcement post, rather than, say, a post in Customer Service saying "if you're uncomfortable with something, don't feel afraid to ask the user responsibile to stop" or a PM to any offending users saying "hey, maybe you're going a bit overboard"?
I figured that this would be a big change that y'all would want to discuss together, but it looks like I was wrong. Sorry.
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Re: We need to talk

Post by Lie Katano on 31st March 2017, 7:38 pm

As far as I knew, the policy of "speak up if you're uncomfortable" (which...I think was what you were trying to propose, everything else taken together) was the de facto, if not the actual, rule for quite a while. Bringing it up again - or even just invoking it, saying "hey guys I'm getting a bit uncomfortable with all the sexual talk lately" - does not require an announcement (which will be the first thing literally anyone who opens up any sub forum will see) with a title like "we need to talk".

Nor does it require dragging up issues that have been a complete and utter non-problem since...I'm pretty sure before Record Keeper released. I'm not sure why I'm using that as my timeframe reference, but. There's a chance it would be brought up again, sure, but the odds of that, I'd say, are pretty low. So low as to make even the most reckless gambler cringe. This community is, in general, pretty non-jerky.

Again, if I'm misinterpreting what you're trying to say - let me know. But that's my problem with this whole rigamarole, at least from how I perceive it.



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Re: We need to talk

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